AHL - Develop, Win or Both?
by Fehrskine on Oct 24, 2009 12:36 AM EDT
15 comments
So Michael Nylander was sent to Grand Rapids of the AHL rather than Hershey purportedly to allow for more playing time for Caps prospects in Hershey. Is that really consistent with the Caps philosophy?
Without getting too deeply into the machinations of what could happen if you bring a first line player into Hershey, the Caps organizational philosophy clearly is to field a sufficient number of veterans in Hershey who are good-to-very good AHL players but who have nary a chance to be NHL regulars to compete every year for a Calder Cup (which to me, isn't terribly consistent with "send Nylander to Grand Rapids so our prospects can play"). Other organizations have a different philosophy -- allow their best prospects, or at least prospects who have a chance, to play more significant minutes in the AHL and really not care how the team performs at the end of the day. In other words, for organizations like the Caps, it's sign guys like Giroux, Aucoin, Pinzotto, etc, compete for a chance at the Calder Cup, and give their true prospects a chance at an extended run in a playoff atmosphere (and no playoff atmosphere in the AHL can compete with Hershey). For other teams, its give the younger guys a shot in the most pressure packed situations and see how they compete. Personally, I like the way the Caps have approached it but I'd be very interested in the superlative wisdom of the Japers' crowd on this issue.
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You are looking at this through the wrong end of the telescope.
First, don’t read that press release too literally. Nylander’s assignment has nothing to do with playing time for Hershey prospects and everything to do with the scouts from shadowy unnamed “European” teams who have demanded that they get a chance to see for themselves that his madd centerman skillz haven’t atrophied during his extended press box tour.
You may recall that Nyls was benched specifically because his style of play was ineffective and inconsistent with Coach Boudreau’s system, and since the Bears also follow those basic systems (through Coach Woods and now Coach French, both hand-picked successors to BB), it makes :: zero :: sense to assign him to a team that would not allow him to demonstrate his skills to their fullest.
I’m quite sure that the choice of team for his conditioning stint was not arrived at by accident. Perhaps the Griffins/Red Wings system was a bit more accommodating, perhaps the Griffins were feeling the heat of a 1-4 season start, perhaps GMGM has some photos that Steve Yzerman would rather forget. All we really know is that Michael Nylander will never skate in a Caps jersey at any level, and hopefully those mysterious European scouts will take note of his three assists and “second star o the game” honors last night, and conveniently forget that he was on the ice for all three goals against.
As for the second part of your questions, someone else here will have to discuss the Caps’ farm team philosophies. I’m not qualified.
IS PAЯTY NOW
by Your Nation's Capital on Oct 24, 2009 2:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m not so sure I am buying what OFB is selling. Nylander was even for the night, all 3 points came on the PP (so no + there) and Grand rapids only scored 1 ES goal while allowing 2 ES goals against. Had Nylander been on the ice for the goals against he would have ended up at the very least a -1 for the night, – 2 if he wasn’t on the ice for the lone GR even strength goal.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Oct 24, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://theahl.com/stats/official-game-report.php?game_id=1006156
Check the column to the right of the goal scored info, Nylander was not on the ice for any GA
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Oct 24, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. Nylander was on the ice for only three goals — the three he assisted on. OFB Fail.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 24, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oh dear. My apologies. I’ll do my own research next time.
IS PAЯTY NOW
by Your Nation's Capital on Oct 24, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha no worries, your other points were spot on!
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Oct 24, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very well summed up YNC.
I think you have to remember that AHL teams are limited to how many AHL veterans you can have. I don’t remember what the cut off is on how many games played, or how many you can have, but the rule is in place. With that said, you might as well bring in the best damned veterans you can get.
Secondly, don’t get your veterans and your prospects confused. While technically this is Pinizzotto’s 4th year in the AHL, he only played 28 games combined his first two years according to his player page at www.hersheybears.com .
There may be many players at Hershey that never make it to wearing a Caps jersey full time, but I think that most of them are still Caps prospects. We just happen to be very deep right now and they look like vets at the AHL level. In years past, these guys would already have been up for lack of talent at the big club level.
by HateOffSeason on Oct 24, 2009 8:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure there are exceptions to the veteran limits for conditioning stints like Nylander’s on. If they wanted him in Hershey, he could go there. They don’t — probably for the reasons YNC gave above.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 24, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AHL veteran limits are for the number of veterans that play in a particular game. Not the number of veterans on the roster. Only skaters, not goalies.
As of right now, the veterans on the Hershey roster are Kane and Helmer. (and Fleischmann while he is on the conditioning loan.)
I don’t believe Sugden is a vet – He has played in 237 regular season games in the AHL and IHL over the years. The rest were in the ECHL, LNAH, and QSPHL.
AHL vet status from the AHL FAQs…“…the following development rule in place for the 2009-10 season: Of the 18 skaters (not counting two goaltenders) that teams may dress for a regular-season game, at least 13 must be qualified as”development players." Of those 13, 12 must have played in 260 or fewer professional games (including AHL, NHL, IHL and European elite leagues), and one must have played in 320 or fewer professional games." All calculations for development status are based on regular-season totals as of the start of the season."
320+ games
1) Aucoin 570 GP NHL/AHL – AHL vet for 09-10
2) Giroux 589 GP NHL/AHL – AHL vet for 09-10
3) Helmer 1,107 GP NHL/AHL/IHL – AHL vet for 09-10
4) Kane 675 GP NHL/AHL – AHL vet for 09-10
5) Laing 550 GP NHL/AHL – AHL vet for 09-10
6) Sloan 324 GP NHL/AHL – AHL vet for 09-10 (first time counting as an AHL vet)
Amadio and Reid are not considered AHL vets for the 2009-10 season. They will be next season. Bourque falls in the in-between category, but not relevant at the moment.
The Nylander stuff is all spin anyway; there is no way they were going to assign him to Hershey.
About Pinizzotto, he’s a prospect, a depth prospect but still a prospect, and this is only his third full pro year. In 06-07 he was at RPI; he only joined Hershey for a handful of games at the end of the season.
by sk84fun_dc on Oct 24, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Rec’d. This is exactly what I was trying to say, but you actually did the research and shit. Very well done.
by HateOffSeason on Oct 24, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sk8 — just want to say how glad I am to be reading your stuff here. I’d seen it at hfboards and other places. Always well researched and well thought out.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Oct 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Caps organizational philosophy clearly is to field a sufficient number of veterans in Hershey who are good-to-very good AHL players but who have nary a chance to be NHL regulars to compete every year for a Calder Cup (which to me, isn’t terribly consistent with “send Nylander to Grand Rapids so our prospects can play”)
I’m not sure why this is inconsistent. If the Caps had gotten Nyls to agree to a full season of Hershey before the season started (which is highly unlikely) then they could have alloted a veteran spot for Nyls. But the Caps and Bears set their veteran slots without Nyls in the picture, then the rest were filled by prospects and semi-prospects. Sending Nyls to HER would push the depth chart down and take away prospect time while Nyls was playing. The Caps don’t like prospects on the bench, which is why AnGus is back in Sweden, and several guys have gone through the ECHL the last couple years.
In other words, for organizations like the Caps, it’s sign guys like Giroux, Aucoin, Pinzotto, etc, compete for a chance at the Calder Cup, and give their true prospects a chance at an extended run in a playoff atmosphere (and no playoff atmosphere in the AHL can compete with Hershey).
This is correct, and I think the Caps organization properly understands that long playoff runs are very valuable to young prospects. Just look at how Green, et al. speak of their Calder Cup runs and the value it had to their development. I don’t think you are saying this, but I want to make it clear. The Bears don’t solely rely on their veterans to win the Calder Cup. In each of the Bears’ Cups while affiliated with the Caps the Bears have gotten significant contributions from high profile Caps prospects. Those prospects were in a very real sense an important part of the team victory, but it is unlikely that they could have done it without the veterans in the lineup.
Finally, it is important to have the career-AHL guys because you know they won’t be gone (in DC) for extended periods of time. Prospects can, and do, get called up and miss part of the AHL season. They also slump. Giroux and Aucoin get spot duty for the Caps but are generally relied upon to be the backbone of the team.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Couldn’t agree more with your point – and just to add to it:
06 Calder Cup Champion Team – Fleishman, Gordon (Boyd), Steckel, Laich, Green. All of those guys have since graduated and are now up with Washington.
When you look at Washington, you have to realize, they’re a very, very young team with a ton of talent up front. If you’re a young AHL guy that’s got a pretty good shot at making a case to crack an NHL roster – one of the last places you’re going to go is Hershey. Yeah, you’ll get called up – but there’s a slim-to-none chance of ever landing a permanent job with the Caps. If you’re a good AHL player with higher hopes, most of the time you’re going to want to go play for Syracuse (the Blue Jacket’s Farm Club), Rochester (Florida Panthers), Norfolk (Tampa Bay), Chicago (Atlanta’s farm team), or San Antonio (Phoenix). Those are places where you can get called up, show your stuff, and possibly earn a permanent spot.
by OverTheBoards on Oct 27, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you mean “mechanics,” not “machinations.”
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by turnituptoeleven on Oct 24, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorta OT but last year HER scored a ton of goals but also let up a ton of goals and had a ton of PIM. This year so far (yeah it’s early but almost 10% of their season is done) their goals against and PIM are way down. Nice to see.
If consequences dictate the course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. If consequences dictate the course of action, then I should play God...
by Fehr and Balanced on Oct 24, 2009 4:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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Southeast Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Washington
|
59 | 41 | 12 | 6 | 88 |
|
Tampa Bay
|
57 | 25 | 21 | 11 | 61 |
|
Atlanta
|
57 | 25 | 24 | 8 | 58 |
|
Florida
|
58 | 24 | 25 | 9 | 57 |
|
Carolina
|
58 | 21 | 30 | 7 | 49 |
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